September 11, 2001

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Kayar
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Kayar » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:48 am

You claim my ideology is built on sand. However, if my ideology is in fact built on sand, something which I will not refute, then your ideology is built on clouds, and I would take a solid sand castle over an insubstantial one any day.

You seem to believe faith in your god is the answer to everything. I have no faith to give to your god. This does not mean that I have no faith, however. Trust and faith go hand in hand, but for me and many others, they do not go hand in hand with your god. People need something to have faith in, something to have trust in, but your god is not for everyone. You see, any person of logic and wisdom will tell you that not even god is trustworthy because god himself cannot be trusted to exist. It makes me wonder, really, what our conversation would be like if someone else came into it, claiming that the only true god was Yahweh, or that there were no gods, only Enlightenment or Nirvana, or that one-eyed Odin or maybe Zeus or Jupiter was truly the King of the Gods. How would you react, I wonder? What would you say to them? Would you argue with them, over trivialities such as which god is true or why this god is false? How your god created all things and these other gods had nothing to do with it? Or would you let them say their piece and let them have their beliefs, and say nothing of it?

Gods are answers, but not necessarily the right ones. If we knew with absolute certainty, then I would be happy to give my faith to your god. But then it would no longer be faith, would it? Once the veil is pulled from my eyes, once I have truly seen the face of God and know Him to be real, then I would have nothing else to believe in, would I? I would see the face of God and madness would ensue, because no man may see the face of God. Do you know why? Because your god does not exist, and if anyone in your faith understood that with absolute certainty then they would "go mad," and tear your religion down with themselves. Your religion is a control device, put in place to convince people into believing in something so that they will continue moving forward with their lives. It helps the many in this way, gives them something to live and die for. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Sounds like the Government. Sounds like patriotism. Sounds like propaganda. Show the true faces of the ones in charge and you see them for who they really are, people just like us who become corrupted, because you are right, power does corrupt, just as it corrupted your church. You know that ancient civilizations claimed to have "divine right," that they were given their power by the gods themselves?

People need something to believe in, but it is not gods nor is it the government. It is themselves. The human race tears itself apart with self-loathing. What do we fear? We fear each other. Your religion and others do one thing right, and that is in spreading goodwill and an ideal of being kind to one another, of being "good." We need to believe in that. We need to believe in ourselves, our friends, our neighbors, everyone, we need to believe in humanity. Yes, many in the government are corrupt, and yes, it is because of power. They are all still people too. Everyone has a soul, right? A spirit? A conscience. That is what I believe in. The human conscience. Our ability to forgive and forget, our ability to care for one another, our ability to find happiness for ourselves and bring happiness to others. The government is not faceless. We already think we've seen their true faces, we believe we know them to be corrupt and all that you say. But their faces are human, their souls are human, their conscience is human, and they won't destroy humanity if they believe in it as I do. As you do. Because I know you believe in humanity, too. Humanity was created in God's image, after all.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Sparky » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:24 am

Was that sarcasm in your last sentence there?

I have much to say on the subject of the last 30 years of American history, but I will do so in the form of an essay elsewhere.

Suffice it to say that there are some presidents who are worthy of the death sentence for treason.

And this:
At that, this is a layman's point of view without even having fully watched any of these videos you've posted nor fully reading any of the articles.
...is why people are ignorant and closed-minded. They don't even look at the evidence. (I'm not referring to you alone; I know people who argue with me before they admit not even having watched the video that we are discussing. So I'm like WTF how can you argue with me if you haven't even seen the video we're talking about??!?)

So Kayar, no offense buddy, but you need to do more research before you can make claims about that which you have so little research already. Otherwise it really is a case of the blind leading the blind. Research first, postulate later. And don't take that personally, because it's more like a habitual plague than anyone's fault.

What I find so sad about this whole thing is that people can't stop pointing fingers at anyone but themselves. Many people are so delusional that they blame God for the problems and mistakes of people. How can that possibly make sense? Should I blame you for the fact that I'm lactose intolerant? Should you blame God because you don't know everything? Should I blame Monoman because the Windows software is so fragile? There is no progress in pointing the finger. Take responsibility for your own actions and don't be so ignorant, prideful and spiteful that you would blame God for the shortcomings of man. You have to be careful what you think, say, and do, because there is only One who is infallible.

For example, it seems many people blame their lack of faith upon God's wisdom in having not shown their eyes something that would make them believe that God exists. And to how many human's wills should God cater, do you think? Or perhaps God who has infinite wisdom is actually doing us all a favor by mandating faith before understanding? After all, what reward is deserved for lack of faith? Or what understanding is gained if your current understanding is satiated rather than pushed? What life would you have if you were still in your mother's womb, and what could you possibly have learned by remaining there? You would live in complete fear and lack of understanding of the unknown, which is basically what people do who have no faith -- they fear the unknown, a.k.a. death. But when you have faith in God and have learned from God, you no longer have any reason to fear death, because God has given you life eternal.
Either you are groping for answers, or you are asking God and listening to Jesus.

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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Kayar » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:16 am

Yes, Sparky, you are right, if I want to carry on a discussion about September 11 and the history of the US, then yes, I do need to do more research. I don't take that personally, I understand and agree. However, when it comes to whether or not I believe in Christianity, I am an expert on the subject, considering that these are after all my own personal beliefs. I do not profess to understand fully your own beliefs. In fact, it baffles me as to why any reasonable person would believe in a god, unless they were born into it, which is what I would assume to be your case.

Now, you claim that I am pointing fingers at god, which is not really true. I am pointing fingers, I won't argue that, and I agree that it is something people need to do less of. When it all comes down to it, however, we are all in some way partly responsible for the direction the world has gone in. I was pointing fingers at religion, because in my mind religion has been a major catalyst for many of the problems we see today. People ignorantly denounce science, saying "oh no, evolution never occurred, it was god who created us all." This is a problem. Churches spread this ignorance, and the masses become blind to the truth. As you have already said, they point fingers at society and other people for their problems, and exclaim "oh how wonderful it will be when god saves me from all of this." The fact that we do not know for a fact that there is a god, or heaven, or immortality, etc, means that if someone lives their life believing that they will be saved from all sin when they die because god is there to save them, then think how ironic it is when they die and there is nothing at all afterwards. People will treat others like trash because they do not believe in the same religion as them, because they believe "it does not matter, god still loves me." I am not pointing fingers at god, because I don't believe there is a god to point fingers at. I am pointing fingers at the people who blindly ignore common sense and scientific fact and place all their faith in a being we cannot prove exists. Wars happen between peoples of differing religions, people die daily for their blindness. You can't place your trust in something as unreliable as god. You have to trust yourself and others.

Fear of the unknown is debilitating, I agree with you on that. And yet, you contradict yourself. You claim that the best reason to do good things is that god will reward you in the afterlife. So, then, if you do not do good things, you will go to hell? And horrible, terrible things happen in hell, is that right? And yet, you do not know what happens in hell, do you? Dante's Divine Comedy is not a part of the bible, last I checked. Death WAS an unknown. And then religion sought to explain death, to make it known, in order to control the people. Just as a parent might tell a child that the boogeyman will get them if they do something without the parent's permission, Christianity takes hell straight out of Greek and Roman lore and uses it as an extra reason for people to be "good." Is that not fear? Fear of the unknown, of what will happen to you if you go to hell? Your religion fosters fear in order to make people do "good." Fear of death is a survival mechanism. If homo sapiens did not fear death in paleolithic times, our species would not exist. Do you know why it is we breathe quicker under stressful situations? It is a built in survival mechanism, "fight or flight." In paleolithic times you either stood your ground and fought whatever predator was after you, or you ran away and did your best to escape it. It's instinct, which is ingrained into us because we wanted to survive. Without fear of death, however, a man might go out drinking and then try driving home, because "if I die god will forgive me and reward me." There's nothing to fear but hell, and the average person isn't going to admit to themselves that there could ever be a possibility of them going to hell. God's reward system causes problems, and therefore god himself cannot be infallible.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Fonzeh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:18 pm

I've had this discussion far too many times. But I will make my opinion known.

I do not believe it was terrorists who did it, that's all im saying on the subject, from what ive seen that what it looks like to me. Thats what I believe, its my opinion, it doesnt hurt anyone, so thats the end of that.

Kayar, Sparky. Your both educated gentlemen, can't we settle this over a joint?
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by TaxiService » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:25 pm

*gets in thread*

did anyone say joint?

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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Sparky » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:41 pm

Sure, let's have a joint agreement to settle this "like gentlemen".

Pistols at ten paces.
LOL Just kidding.

But remember that those who value life and do good are righteous, and those who do not value life and do evil are wicked. It's not a matter of reward but of obedience. There is a tendency toward polarity, especially when it comes to invisible matters like the heart, mind, soul and strength. If you are about love, then you live to do good, such as freeing the oppressed, protecting the weak, practicing reason and true justice... all these things fall under the command "love your neighbor as yourself". But you must first and foremost trust in God, because he's the one who gave the laws on how we should help people. If you follow your own reason and instincts, then you will only end up frustrating other people and alienating them -- your attempts to help them will be fruitless. It's about building a relationship with God, because certainly the author of life has tasks for you and plans for your edification and is waiting quite patiently for you to just turn and look at him. But the only way to look at God is to know God first; you must know who the Holy Spirit is before you can look to him, because you don't use your eyes to see him, but your spirit, heart, mind and strength.

That's all I'll say about this now; superiority complex is a plague in religion and it is synonymous with pride. Trust needs to replace pride. The focus of pride is the self; the focus of trust must be on God. You will find that people who practice religion quite often have very little faith themselves -- have very little actual trust in God -- and that's why you see them make so many mistakes. But the fault of their mistakes is their own, not God's. After all, which one of them is disobeying God?

Yes, Fonzie, however, the goal is not resolution but instead to learn. The goal is not "world peace" but enlightenment that only comes from the Creator of all things and beings. It's Life to know the words of the Author of Life. But you gotta use the right tools for the job: eyes to see, ears to hear, mouth to speak... and your spirit to understand words of the spirit.

So make sure that whatever your doing is good, otherwise revise your approach so that you make something good come out of it. Gotta be clever yet completely innocent ("clean").

To begin a quest for knowledge, it is enough to admit that you do not have all the answers. By definition, however, there is One who does.
Either you are groping for answers, or you are asking God and listening to Jesus.

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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Kayar » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:13 am

Hah, pistols, hahah... *on radio* Abort mission, abort!

But, no, really, I'm done. I can't keep arguing like this with you, Sparky. Neither of us will be swayed by the other, that much is clear. Know though that I truly feel that our ideologies are in many ways not so different, it is only the origin of the codes we follow that we differ on and how we view those origins, and perhaps some other minor differences. And, as stated before, I have little to provide to the conversation concerning 9/11.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Amy » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:07 pm

Kayar wrote:god
Oh shiittt he didn't capitalize God.
TaxiService wrote:*gets in thread*

did anyone say joint?
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Kayar » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:21 pm

Amy wrote:
Kayar wrote:god
Oh shiittt he didn't capitalize God.
I'm glad someone noticed.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Vegerot » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:06 pm

Capitalizing "God" is just proper English, regardless of your beliefs, or lack thereof.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Kayar » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:34 pm

There are those who omit "god" when speaking the American Pledge of Allegiance, or who refuse to speak it at all because the word "god" is in it. I am not one of those people, but you may still view my act of not capitalizing the word as equivalent to the same thing. Also, you are wrong in any case, the word "god" is capitalized by those who believe in him because they view him as being important enough to deserve it, however if these same people were to write an essay concerning the gods worshipped during the early days of the Roman Empire they would write "gods," not capitalized. For example, one would not say "Mars, the Roman God of war." It would be "Mars, the Roman god of war." In this same way I address the Christian god, uncapitalized.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Moxus » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:20 pm

Since this topic boils down to ye old truth debate, I'm gonna bring in good ol', non-partisan Rene Descartes: the only logical certainty is that while one thinks, one exists.

Now, we can debate this however we want, I'm just saying that, from a logical standpoint, that's the philosophical extent to which logic is gonna help us out.

-=Moxus=-
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Excend » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:34 pm

I don't think this is an argument about the presence of god, Moxus. And Vegerot, God is only capitalized when used as the Christian god's name.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Vegerot » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:15 pm

Kayar wrote:In this same way I address the Christian god, uncapitalized.
What about the Jewish god 0_o (dat's me)

White Knightmare wrote:I don't think this is an argument about the presence of god, Moxus. And Vegerot, God is only capitalized when used as the Christian god's name.
Oh shit man, really? I didn't even notice that until just now. That's very racist/biased, don't you think? You capitalize the "G" when you are either referring to a god that you believe in OR out of respect for another religion. Which is why we don't capitalize the "G" in Roman gods, because there's just about nobody who worships them anymore.

Also Sparky, can you post the direct link of the video. This fucking proxy I'm using won't let me see the video.
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Re: September 11, 2001

Post by Yarok » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:50 pm

If you're using a proxy, there's a reason. You'll have to live your life in anguish without that video. Meanwhile, everyone else is watching it and having a helluva time.

And fucking double posts, man.
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