Modding vs. Cheating

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Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Sparky » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:52 pm

To cheat, to defraud, which is entirely illegal and is bad, has this definition:

Defraud: To illegally obtain by deception. (paraphrased from Apple dictionary).

This is in contrast to modding, which is a method of modifying something. Modding in computer terms is typically considered a form of hacking:

Hack: To use a computer to gain unauthorized access to data in a system.

The term "unauthorized" is tied into the legal licensing terms that the software author/publisher has provided with the software as the EULA (End-User License Agreement), wherein they specify whether or not accessing the software data apart from its front-end is authorized by them. If it is authorized, then accessing the software is legal; if it is not authorized, then accessing the software is illegal.

Unauthorized access is rationally synonymous with reading the software data using a third-party program, software not endorsed or provided by the author/publisher.

Eschaton is an example of a Halo map file hacking program, along these lines. Any file analysis done by a third-party program is considered hacking.

But then, surely you would ask, "if my intentions are not foul, what harm has been done?" and "this does not provide for operating system basics, like file indexing and anti-virus tools which by this definition would be automated hacking tools!"

Thus, more specifics are required, because reverse engineering something is as old as the discovery of fire and has persisted in every field in order to improve it, including the Music field, where one composer would transcribe the musical scores of another composer in order to learn what they had done from the emic, unspecified, participant's perspective.
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Yarok » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:08 pm

I don't see the motivation behind this post. Are you trying to say that you won't be modding?
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Sparky » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:46 pm

No, that is not what I am trying to say. This topic is not a criticism, but an analytical discussion.
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Smythe » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:00 am

Cheating is using methods to gain an unfair upperhand.

Modding is for fun, and increasing the longevity of a game.

/thread
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Monoman » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:33 pm

Smythe wrote:Cheating is using methods to gain an unfair upperhand.

Modding is for fun, and increasing the longevity of a game.

/thread
Cheating can also be fun and modding can also be used to gain an unfair advantage.
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Smythe » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Monoman wrote:
Smythe wrote:Cheating is using methods to gain an unfair upperhand.

Modding is for fun, and increasing the longevity of a game.

/thread
Cheating can also be fun and modding can also be used to gain an unfair advantage.
When modding is used to gain an unfair advantage, then it should be classed as cheating.

If you are giving yourself an upper hand using knowledge (exploiting) or programs (Cheat Engine etc) then it's cheating.
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by rEsTnPeAcEz » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:10 pm

Modding is just modifying.
Modding should not be classed as hacking, because it is not hacking. It depends what you modify and the reason why you are modifying.
Cheat Engine is not cheating, just because it's called "Cheat Engine".
It's memory modding.
You can use it for anything but it's not cheating. It still depends what you use it for.
Look at this:
Modding can be cheating, and cheating can be modding.

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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by nil » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:27 am

@ rEsTnPeAcEz: what do you think is hacking?

There's nothing wrong with giving yourself an unfair advantage in some scenarios, and it can be fun. Playing against other people online, it is probably immoral, sure. Increasing my jump height in Mario gives me an unfair advantage, although it doesn't completely break the game and it's a game I've beaten it before anyway, so who is the developer to tell me the most fun way of playing his game?
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Mgalekgolo » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:19 am

Usually when people acuse me of being a "hacker", I tell them modding is changing the game to change or add to the playing of the game, and hacking is the act of cheating. While in technical terms this is completely false, this is how I like to think about it.
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by rEsTnPeAcEz » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:13 am

@ nil
Hacking is different then modding. Modding is modifying and hacking is to gain unauthorized access to data in a system.
Hacking is known to be bad, but your right about if someone is hacking but with authorized data then they should not get in trouble.
In fact, it should not even be called hacking.
I will only say someone is hacking, if they are actually gaining unauthorized access to data in a system.

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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by nil » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:10 am

I argue that that is cracking, while hacking is something like this, but I see your point.
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Sparky » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:45 pm

nil wrote:I assert that that is cracking, while hacking is something like this, but I see your point.
Trying to implement my other topic here, eh? O_)
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Smythe » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:34 pm

nil wrote:@ rEsTnPeAcEz: what do you think is hacking?

There's nothing wrong with giving yourself an unfair advantage in some scenarios, and it can be fun. Playing against other people online, it is probably immoral, sure. Increasing my jump height in Mario gives me an unfair advantage, although it doesn't completely break the game and it's a game I've beaten it before anyway, so who is the developer to tell me the most fun way of playing his game?
The example of Mario is a perfect example of the grey line that does exist, while yes it is cheating, it's still just as hard to do the bloody bowser tunnel levels.

Singleplayer is a very different issue than multiplayer, and you can never truly cheat in singleplayer unless there's a leaderboard, and something at stake.

The moment other people come into the equation, then it becomes immoral. But yes, cheating can be fun, I've made all the walls transparent on some maps for Halo, which is... entertaining, though i can't see where i'm going, therefore giving me some kind of disadvantage.

Cheating/modding all comes down to balance, and what you, and everyone else thinks is fair or fun. An example would be having one player almost invincible, even in free for all, you would see players joining together to destroy them.
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by nil » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:28 am

You don't need a leaderboard or play against others to have something at stake. There is simply the challenge of being able to beat a game as the designers intended it to be. For some games, this can be very difficult (anyone here play contra?). Some people on this matter may argue that people don't make games like they used to.

A common form of cheating is playing classic games with save states in an emulator. Makes it easier, but just so tempting. Some people play these games over and over again. Tools like game genie advertised for cheating back in the day were quite the thing. For some games, I unlocked modes or bonuses that were nearly impossible to do regurarly; on one occasion, I clearly saw it as the developer's fault in design. Of course it was used as a modding tool as well; in one game I could play a multiplayer match on a single player level.

Balance of course plays an important role. One could cheat a game giving an unfair advantage to the player (anyone watch mario frustration? If not, look it up on youtube). In mario kart, I had a cheat so that I could use any item at any time, but so could my friends who I battled with. Of course this gave an unfair advantage to AI's. Cheating can also apply to giving handicaps to players in games that don't support it. Cheating in multiplayer isn't always bad, and of course there is also cooperative multiplayer (maybe, say like Minecraft).
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Re: Modding vs. Cheating

Post by Sparky » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:23 am

People play games for different reasons, and Smythe is right about the inclusion of other people resulting in the potential for it to be (at least more obviously) immoral; but it could even be immoral if you were not involving other people (after all, you are a person also). Nil is also right about that some people play it for the experience of the developer's presentation, often disregarding entertainment and treating it like a "work" challenge to overcome -- which is that "fiora" term in game psychology which means overcoming a challenge with great effort.

The clincher is that life is not a game, and so if and how any of these principles relate to "reality" is questionable. As I have understood it, since "With man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible," (in regard to entering the Kingdom of God and having eternal life by knowing God and Jesus Christ his son, aka, living forever), God is the one who causes life to not be a game, because within games you have rules that limit you while in life you have rules that free you, and God is infinite and can do anything. Let me shorten this concept a little:

- Games: rules; limitations; winning and losing (often times); replay ability (almost always)
- Life: laws; no limitations (because with God, all things are possible -- all things that presently exist, exist because of God, and God can do anything he wants to do); everyone dies at some point and God demands their lives back from them (but real life of the spirit of a person is in knowing God whose living words, Jesus and Immanuel, which mean "God Saves" and "God with us", are Spirit and Life and Salvation and Truth and the Way to God because they lead to knowing the God of Life and Truth and Jesus Christ his son) and rises again at the Word of God (Jesus' voice) to be judged based upon what they did (which includes what they said, and also what they did not do); you only get one life, there is no "doing it over", it's a straight path in Existence, despite what you may or may not be inclined to think or believe.

In all the above ways, and quite likely others, life differs from games. Until you consider these things, though, you might be inclined to consider that life is a game when it really is not a game.

So keep watch: "It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back--whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’" (Mark 13). (And you will know that that is a command from God's Mouth.)
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