Does the Big Bang prove God?

[rEsTnPeAcEz]

Go to this website: http://www.halozone.com/halozone/appolo ... bang.shtml

[Sparky]

The truth of every matter gives evidence of the God of Truth.

What surprises most who know God is how long it takes scientists to come to terms with what God has already said in the Holy Bible. For example, "the heavens will vanish like smoke and the earth wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die in the same way like flies, but my salvation will endure for all generations, my righteousness will never end." How long has it taken scientists to come to terms with the fact that the earth will wear out like a garment? Why couldn't they have simply read this and understood it from the Mouth of God?

But God and Jesus Christ alone is trustworthy.

[Sparky]

[TaxiService]

>There is no logical explanation outside of God the creator to suggest a cause for the big bang.
>>logical
>>God
Pick one and one only.

>The universe did not come into being on its own, God caused it to come into being.
Existence does not imply creation.

>By studying the almost infinite number of constants in the universe such as the speed of light, gravity and nuclear forces, it is easy to see that the universe was carefully crafted and designed.
Not really.

>Superstring theory attempts to describe elemental particle physics using ‘strings’. By treating subatomic particle structures as strings, it is possible to see that different vibrations or ‘notes’ of these strings will produce different subatomic particles. This is the most accepted theory that explains the beginning of the universe and the underlying structure that is the building block for matter and energy.
I don't have the knowledge to really understand what's written on this page, but i've got reason to believe whoever wrote the big bang article extrapolated only some specific things about it and put it together in fallacious ways to prove their invalid points.

>One aspect of superstring theory that is intriguing is the concept of extra-dimensionality. Extra dimensions consist of both space and time dimensions. Such extra-dimensionality explains how God can still be a part of the universe today, yet remain hidden from human senses.
Of course, let's use a theory that cannot be proved yet (or actually, will probably never be able to be proved) to prove something we can't prove.

>Through the study of scientific evidence, it is possible to draw only one conclusion. There is no logical explanation for the creation and formation of the universe outside of acknowledging God.
Again, we're mixing up logical conclusions with illogical beliefs.

>The grand design of the universe with its intricate balance of billions of galaxies statistically happens one time in 10⁹⁹. This is virtually impossible.
Balance? Galaxies? This statement doesn't even make sense. Let's try to break it into smaller parts.
>The grand design of the universe
>statistically happens one time in 10⁹⁹.
>This is virtually impossible.
The universe happens one time in 10⁹⁹? Excuse me, what happens in the other 10⁹⁹-1 cases? What cases are these? Big bangs?

>From these facts, it can be said without a doubt, God exists. God created our universe, and still resides here today.
Hmm. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

I advise you guys to read and learn about logical fallacies. They're used all the time in these kind of media you're so eager about, so it'd be better to know what the fuck you're reading and what logic really is about.

[WaeV]

I'm afraid Taxi's right; that website is textbook "begging the question".

Some quotations for fun:

"To become a scientist you questioned one of your beliefs, not just a small belief but something that had great significance to you. You did experiments, gathered data, and the outcome proved the belief was wrong. You saw the results and understood what they meant." Harry's voice was faltering. "Remember, Derek, you can't sacrifice a true belief that way, because the experiments will confirm it instead of falsifying it. Your sacrifice to become a scientist was your false belief that ____."

"That's not true! I didn't sacrifice the belief. I still believe that!" His voice was getting louder, and the chill was getting worse.

Harry shook his head. His voice came in a whisper. "Derek... I'm sorry, Derek, you don't believe it, not anymore." Harry's voice rose again. "I'll prove it to you. Imagine that someone tells you they're keeping a elephant in their house. You tell them you want to see it. They say it's an invisible elephant. You say fine, you'll listen to it move. They say it's an inaudible elephant. You say you'll throw some cooking flour into the air and see the outline of the elephant. They say the elephant is permeable to flour. And the telling thing is that they know, in advance, exactly which experimental results they'll have to explain away. They know everything will come out the way it does if there's no elephant, they know in advance just which excuses they'll have to make. So maybe they say there's a elephant. Maybe they believe they believe there's a elephant, it's called belief-in-belief. But they don't actually believe it. You can be mistaken about what you believe, most people never realize there's a difference between believing something and thinking it's good to believe it."

"From now on, you'll always be looking for ways to test your beliefs."

What is true is already so.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.

[Sparky]

Not really.

Taxi, it does not make you intelligent to entertain vulgarities in language or ethics, doubting the existence of existence itself, nor is it useful in any way to any living being in that existence. If you want to be treated with respect, earn that respect by being respectable and decent in language and ethics. You have said what you desired to say, and it is nothing more than that, for you have not added logic or reason to your statements, and refutations and disagreements provide no wisdom to the discerning heart, mind, or soul. If you really wish to understand what life is all about, you will not gain that wisdom and understanding through simple arguing and disagreeing and refuting that which is wise and sound in knowledge, understanding, wisdom, logic, reason, and faithfulness to the only One who ever created.

Why are you so bitter and argumentative all the time? Why are there so many angry people here? If we can answer these questions, and then isolate these emotions from the pursuit of understanding what life is all about, then we certainly will make progress!

[WaeV]

Why are you so bitter and argumentative all the time? Why are there so many angry people here? If we can answer these questions, and then isolate these emotions from the pursuit of understanding what life is all about, then we certainly will make progress!

I'm not surprised that you're confused about this, because if you understood the ways in which you are annoying people you probably would not do them so often.

I personally like discussing things of this nature and "comparing notes" so to speak, but I don't think it's a conversation until both sides have some willingness to change their opinions.

[TaxiService]

>I personally like discussing things of this nature and "comparing notes" so to speak, but I don't think it's a conversation until both sides have some willingness to change their opinions.
So do I, but this is an useless conversation. Like two kings in a chess game stuck in an endless stalemate.
I guess that if my requirements were met, I'd be willing to change my opinion, but my requirements are set so that my opinion can't change, and so are Sparky's. So yeah, it's just something i'm wasting my time doing, and so is he.

I'll be your black king today, Sparky.


>Why are you so bitter and argumentative all the time? Why are there so many angry people here?
Because i live a stressful life and i repress anger a lot. Pointing out fallacies makes me feel as i'm trying to make the world a better, saner and more reasonable place.
Also you are a constant stream of badly argued concepts, so you're more prone to be targeted by me than other people. Hence why you consider me bitter and stuff.

>Taxi, it does not make you intelligent to entertain vulgarities in language or ethics, doubting the existence of existence itself
I know. I don't want to appear intelligent anyway. I am simply conveying my thoughts on some matters.
For instance, here are my thoughts on you claiming that i'm "doubting the existence of existence itself":

I'm not. You're assuming that doubting the existence of your almighty god automatically implies that i'm doubting the existence of existence itself too. And, guess what? dass wrong, brotha! You're misrepresenting my argument on the basis of wrong assumptions.

>If you want to be treated with respect, earn that respect by being respectable and decent in language and ethics.
Having a different opinion than yours doesn't make it indecent or unethical, dude.

>You have said what you desired to say, and it is nothing more than that, for you have not added logic or reason to your statements, and refutations and disagreements provide no wisdom to the discerning heart, mind, or soul.
Well, i guess you're right. I mean, all i did was basically saying "nope" to what was written on that page.

Let's see if i can do better right now.

A) logic, god, pick one and one only.
I've written those lines because in the article it was implied that the belief in God as an explanation of natural phenomenons was a logical one. Well, I think it's a meaningless explanation. I think this because saying "X is like it is because it is" is a circular argument, and thus not really a valid answer.
Assuming that God is a logical explanation is like throwing in the towel. It's a non-proof. Thus i used the shitty ‘>pick one’ meme to prove my point in a seemingly witty while actually arrogant manner.

B) Existence does not imply creation
As i've said one hundred times already, it's invalid to assume that since something exists it has to have been created.
Again, as in point A, it's like giving up in finding an answer.
We don't know how the universe originated, and we don't have the means to find an answer. (yet (?))
By believing that an entity created the universe as we know it we renounce in trying to study and know more about it. Because "it's just like it is".
The difference between me and you on this matter is simple. We both gave up finding the real answer to this stupid, meaningless question. But I just don't care about it, and you embraced a huge amount of irrational horseshit that claims to explain EVERYTHING in the universe.
You feel better thinking there's an universal justice and an omnipotent being watching you and stuff. I feel better acknowledging my ignorance and not giving myself false hopes and necessity to rationalize irrational bullshit.

C) Not really.
This is a case of false cause. What correlation is there between some numerical constants and their existence? None! The universe exists in this way, and we use mathematical abstractions called numbers to define and recognize some recurring things. But in no way you can prove me that these numbers have been thought out by a conscious entity.
The quoted statements in my previous post are nothing more than poorly worded arguments. Read it again, dude. It's blatant.

D) I don't have the knowledge to [...] invalid points.
I'm a lazy piece of shit and i don't have the time/will right now to go and read about superstring theory to point out fallacies about it in those statements, because i've got reason to believe that it's gonna be poorly argued bullshit anyway.
Here i am committing this fallacy by the way. Pobody's nerfect!

E) god dammit it's useless to explain the rest


>If you really wish to understand what life is all about, you will not gain that wisdom and understanding through simple arguing and disagreeing and refuting that which is wise and sound in knowledge, understanding, wisdom, logic, reason, and faithfulness to the only One who ever created.
1) I am not trying to understand what life is all about. I've got an idea about life, and that's it. I am not so presumptuous to pretend i'll ever know "what life is all about".
2) I don't think i'm refuting that stuff, man! Au contraire!
3) If "faith" means "ignore reality and mindlessly believe something stupid" then thank god i don't have faith. ; )

[Sparky]

Because i live a stressful life and i repress anger a lot.

Thank you for providing an honest introspection to this conversation. In my experience, and I have had no lack of provocation from people here at MGM, for example, and also where I live among some of my family members, you can still do good things and your anger will simply go away as if it never were there, although it might leave a smudge or two or three and a bad odor which need some repairs. Now this anger will no longer exist if you know God's Words, for example, when Jesus Christ gave the "sermon on the mountain" as it is known, and explained that we must love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, and pray for those who persecute us. You see, God's Words are beyond the de facto impulses of the animal kingdom and even beyond our own willingness to exercise what is good -- perhaps I might adjust that to be stated more correctly: God's Commandments, in other words, Jesus Christ and everything he says and does, both back in the time of the Gospel and still today because he brought himself back to life by his own power and authority, being the Resurrection and Life itself (himself), this living Word of God is beyond the morals of men's hearts or consciences. The conscience is your mailbox from God, wherein you get messages saying "do this" or "do not do this", based upon what thoughts you are entertaining in your heart. Now if you receive these letters from God, how much greater will be your understanding when God is himself there in you through his living Word, Jesus Christ! You see, Jesus Christ is the one speaking to you in your conscience, but when you come to him (and He does draw all mankind to himself now), you truly understand and truly have God in you; not merely his letters which you might unfortunately choose to ignore or disobey, but now you know God and He teaches you Himself through the Holy Spirit, who only speaks what He hears from Jesus Christ, God's Mouth. You were born with the mailbox from God, and you were born with the capacity to grow into a beautiful and wonderful person who does what is Just and Right not according to their own standards, but according to God's Mouth -- and God alone is good; if you want to enter life, obey the Ten Commandments, then come gain more understanding and the only real Joy there can ever be (everything else you might call "happiness" or "joy" or "pleasantry" of "favorable to me" is here today and gone the next moment, leaving nothing but despair and want in its wake, but this is a solid Joy that endures forever and is given by the One God through Jesus Christ his only Son).

Also, in response to your other explanations, it seems that you are contradicting yourself. You claim to have no blind faith, and yet you claim to have blind faith in scientism, which has nothing to do with anything regarding science except the lettering in its title; perhaps a more suitable title would be "nonsensicalism" because it has only assumptions and baseless assertions behind it, along with a tapestry of vague speculation which is both spawned from and as useful to anything of actual validity as imagination is (ie. not valid or useful to real-life application at all, only some "I have a dream" inspiration, neither based upon morals nor evidence, basically "If I ruled the world, I would do it my way" kind of tomfoolery, selfish and egotistical and foolishly arrogant, all at the same time, ie. basically just plain evil and a waste of thought). Yes, Taxi, you are asserting that you have no faith, and yet demonstrating faith in the wild fantasies of men's imaginations which you have not investigated because... well, as you diagnosed yourself, you're being lazy and you don't care to know the truth. Well, my dear friend, that will never do you justice. And I want justice for you, I want to you learn and grow and understand. How can you not want living water after you have tasted it? But you have not yet tasted truth. Once you taste truth, it is foolish to look back to laziness or selfish ambition. And so I have shared the truth with you, but until you "grow a pair" (that's a prodding statement) and seek the truth by ASKING QUESTIONS, you will never get ANY answers. YOU DON'T GET ANSWERS UNLESS YOU ASK QUESTIONS. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you..." Seek first the Kingdom of God and everything else will be given to you as well. Literally, everything else you need, and any questions you might have about anything (as in "why do I feel like a slave to my frustrations and lack such self control" or "what should I do today" or "what is the best thing I could do in life" or "what should I say in response to this person"), that's right, any questions at all, and any needs you have each day, ALL of this will truly be provided for you. You just need to seek the truth, and then you will find it, and then you will have joy that lasts forever, that which no human being or any other thing can give you besides God and Jesus Christ Himself, in Himself.

That, Taxi and friends, is what I want for you: real joy. None of this pagan bullshit. Stop wasting your time and start asking questions.

P.S. "Ask, seek, knock..." these three words are imperatives, commands. "DO IT," commands the Lord. "Ask of me, and you will receive my answer. Seek me and you will find me. Knock and the door to life will be opened to you. Live! I do not delight in the death of anyone. Why would I delight in the death of the wicked? Is it not justice that they should return to me and live?" declares the Sovereign Lord.

[TaxiService]

No, dude. My conscience is absolutely not someone speaking to me.
It is the result of my personal considerations of the things i've been taught and that i've observed.

Why do i consider homosexual relationships to be acceptable, for instance?
Because for some people is just natural to find same-sex partners attractive. And it's not only a human thing either.

Why am i not against recreational drug use?
Because psychoactive drugs, under some circumstances, can have even very positive effects on humans. I think this because i've read about it, known people that had direct experiences and, more importantly, tried it on myself.

Why do i think that deluding yourself with religious bullcrap is wrong?
Because it's not your mind that you're listening, but someone else's. Because it gives you a false interpretation of life, and deludes you into believing something that's not really there. It's just a huge lie. A lie so well thought that you can't stop keeping to lie to yourself.


See, this stuff i post... It takes time for me to think it up and convey it in an understandable way. What you do is mindlessly spam that self-referential bullshit. You can't even reply to my posts because you can't think for yourself, dude.
As soon as anyone gives a well thought argument, you just spew completely unrelated bullcrap and sway the topic. So yeah, why do i even keep typing shit?

And I am the same. I don't even consider whatever you say because it's just so wrong to me. Why do i keep writing then?
I keep writing because you do, Sparky. And it's not like you do it once in a while; you do this every week. Today I'm replying for fun, because

Actually no, I'm not the same. Because I at least TRY to consider what you say. But if what you say is just mindless filler text, there's not really much to consider. >: \

By considering I mean thinking like "Hm. Is this statement valid? Is this statement correct?". Do you do that, sparky? The problem here is our different "valid" and "correct" concepts. I go by encyclopedias. You go by bibles.



EDIT: in response to your edit:
>this pagan bullshit
Yeah, okay. I claimed whatever you said and stuff.
I'm done discussing this stuff with you for a long time again.

EDIT2: "ASKING QUESTIONS"
You're your own derision, you know that?

[WaeV]

Until you seek the truth by ASKING QUESTIONS, you will never get ANY answers. YOU DON'T GET ANSWERS UNLESS YOU ASK QUESTIONS.

I approve of this statement.

Seek first the Kingdom of God and everything else will be given to you as well. Literally, everything else you need, and any questions you might have about anything (as in "why do I feel like a slave to my frustrations and lack such self control" or "what should I do today" or "what is the best thing I could do in life" or "what should I say in response to this person"), that's right, any questions at all, and any needs you have each day, ALL of this will truly be provided for you.

Wait a sec... having an answer isn't the same thing as having a good answer. I mean, every time someone asks me a question I could answer "peanut butter", but it isn't a useful answer. (Unless you're asking what I'd like on a jelly sandwich. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.)


I have an idea... Judging by this quote, being able to correctly predict something is a strong indicator that a doctrine is correct:

Christianity is the only religion that predicted something to happen and it actually happen, so Christianity is the true religion.

If we take the ability to predict something accurately as a metric, we can actually determine which interpretation of the world is more likely to be true!

Lets simply have the two different doctrines -- christianity and science -- try to predict something, and then with a series of tests we can see which one is correct more often. The winner shall be named 'more true' than the other, at least in that particular category. You can choose which thing we'll attempt to predict, but it has to be something that we can find an answer about (i.e. not something about what happens before the universe was created, or after we die).

Unless of course you have a different reason for thinking Christianity is true, in which case I would love to hear why you're convinced Christianity has the best answers.

[Sparky]

Until you seek the truth by ASKING QUESTIONS, you will never get ANY answers. YOU DON'T GET ANSWERS UNLESS YOU ASK QUESTIONS.

I approve of this statement.

Seek first the Kingdom of God and everything else will be given to you as well. Literally, everything else you need, and any questions you might have about anything (as in "why do I feel like a slave to my frustrations and lack such self control" or "what should I do today" or "what is the best thing I could do in life" or "what should I say in response to this person"), that's right, any questions at all, and any needs you have each day, ALL of this will truly be provided for you.

Wait a sec... having an answer isn't the same thing as having a good answer. I mean, every time someone asks me a question I could answer "peanut butter", but it isn't a useful answer. (Unless you're asking what I'd like on a jelly sandwich. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.)


I have an idea... Judging by this quote, being able to correctly predict something is a strong indicator that a doctrine is correct:

Christianity is the only religion that predicted something to happen and it actually happen, so Christianity is the true religion.

If we take the ability to predict something accurately as a metric, we can actually determine which interpretation of the world is more likely to be true!

Lets simply have the two different doctrines -- christianity and science -- try to predict something, and then with a series of tests we can see which one is correct more often. The winner shall be named 'more true' than the other, at least in that particular category. You can choose which thing we'll attempt to predict, but it has to be something that we can find an answer about (i.e. not something about what happens before the universe was created, or after we die).

Unless of course you have a different reason for thinking Christianity is true, in which case I would love to hear why you're convinced Christianity has the best answers.

I am 100% absolutely certain without any doubt whatsoever that you just proved then that God's Words are both more true and more useful than science. And yet, because you apparently have not the knowledge to know the details of your comparison (but I do have enough knowledge of both to make said judgement), you imply that somehow what you have proven is the opposite of what you actually just proved. "The less you know, the more you can assume without intelligent consideration and honestly thorough investigation!"

Oh, and Taxi, stay off the drugs. I'm quite certain that mind-numbing or biochemistry-altering foreign chemicals do the body more harm than good IN EVERY SITUATION, although they might make you feel "better". Reminds me of leeches and mosquitos that inject you with "feel good" chemicals while they suck your blood. Drugs should be discriminatorily destroyed from the face of the earth.

And yes, Taxi, I am a human being just like you. I have a brain and I use it. I have understanding and I use it. But I also know how to behave. You have not demonstrated such discipline.

All I am saying is this: obey the Ten Commandments, don't spew vulgarity from your heart and mouth, and keep asking questions in life -- and be willing to listen to the answers when God shows them to you for your own well-being. It will take discipline like, NO YOU CANNOT MURDER ANYONE YOU DO NOT LIKE, NO YOU CANNOT SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT WITHOUT BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES, YES YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST IN YOUR HEART BEFORE GOD IN ORDER TO IMPROVE YOURSELF. Unless you abide by these things, you are on a road to disaster. Now has anything I said lacked wisdom or validity? If I am giving you good advice, why are you giving me problems for it? Can't you see that what I say to you is intelligent and wise and for your own benefit? Can't you understand that a person says intelligent and wise and good things for another person's benefit not because they hate that person but rather because they love that person? Or would you rather I encourage you to go kill people and commit suicide and rage hate everyone you damn well please and not think before you speak and otherwise act wickedly? Do you honestly believe encouraging you to be honest is somehow serving deceit and lies? That somehow proving to you in logic and reason the validity to love and truth is somehow evil? If you cannot prove me guilty of sin in this way, then why are you refusing to listen to me and rejecting everything I say and insulting and provoking me and telling me I say nothing but to argue? Do you not see that I wish not to argue but to do you good instead?

This is how it has been on this forum among you people. I say wise, educated, insightful, brilliant, loving, truthful, honest, encouraging, hopeful, just, righteous, decent, wonderful things to you. You flatly reject them and insult me and provoke me to anger in response. All you have therefore proven is that you exercise hatred and I exercise love. Now when I stop saying these things to you, all you will be left with is hatred and anger and the same rejection and insults you flung at me, but it will be of yourself coming out of your own mind and heart, just like it has the entire time come out of your mind and heart when it was aimed at me. The evil does not stop until all life is dead, no matter whose heart it comes from. A murderous heart will eventually, when nobody remains to kill and nothing remains to destroy, destroy itself and commit suicide. Or are you unfamiliar with the demise of suicide bombers?

But it is not on the basis of the merit of what I say that you reject me. Rather, it is because, in arrogance and pride, you spitefully reject the possibility that you are still children who do not know the left hand from the right hand. I would rather you end up learning that now, even from me if possible, before you become parents and are thrust into the situation where you are held responsible for your children's actions and must teach them the difference between the left hand and the right hand.

And yes, my love for you has come to an end. I am done helping you. Yet again, time and again, I have shared with you wisdom more valuable than anything on earth, and yet I am entirely rejected, yet again, and insulted and provoked to anger. How many times, I ask, must I endure the rejections of the starving before they see that all they are doing is rejecting the waiter who wants to take their order for food? I am the waiter, you are the starving men. I have waited on you to help you and feed you that which is good for you, but every time I offer you food, you forcefully shove me away and hurl insults at me. With enough shoving, I will no longer come back to you, and you will be left to fend for food in arid wastelands where there is none of the king's portion I had set before you.

Because of the increase of your hatred, the love I have for you has been withheld. But make no mistake: I stand firm that the Lord is my Righteousness and my Salvation, and His Kingdom is near.

[WaeV]

I am 100% absolutely certain without any doubt whatsoever that you just proved then that God's Words are both more true and more useful than science. And yet, because you apparently have not the knowledge to know the details of your comparison (but I do have enough knowledge of both to make said judgement), you imply that somehow what you have proven is the opposite of what you actually just proved. "The less you know, the more you can assume without intelligent consideration and honestly thorough investigation!"

Whoa whoa whoa, slow down. How did you jump to this conclusion? You can't just say "you just proved the opposite of what you intended" without explaining how. Especially since I didn't really prove anything in my last post anyhow - I only suggested a test.

Nice appeal to authority there, though. "You apparently have not the knowledge to know the details of your comparison (but I do)". Am I supposed to just believe you? I verify my beliefs, thank you very much. Until you explain what and how I accidentally proved, I can only assume you're trying to wheedle your way out of my proposed test.

I've picked up on your rejection of "scientism"; something I actually agree with. As Ian Hutchinson says in that video you posted, "Science is the most remarkable and powerful cultural artifact that humankind has ever developed, and I am proud to be a scientist." However, "scientism, in a nutshell, is the belief that science is all the real knowledge there is."

Scientism is obviously not correct (I'm sure you agree with me here). The only matters science is able to handle are predictions which involve publicly verifiable and reproducable experiments. So science can tell us all about external reality (Ian Hutchinson used the word "nature"), but nothing about our internal matters.

Cases where science is good at being true:

• Evolution
• Tectonic drift
• Age of Earth
• Age of the universe
• Condoms are effective at preventing HIV infection
• Homosexuality naturally appears in many species other than humans
• Homosexual and heterosexual couples show the same biochemical response that we interpret as bonding and attachment (aka love)
• Modern medicine is effective at treating many illnesses

Cases where science doesn't attempt to compete:

• Reincarnation
• Prelife / afterlife
• Morals
• Ethics
• The meaning of life

I'm totally fine with any spirituality or personal opinion that doesn't attempt to overrule publically verifiable fact with personal conviction. For instance...

Oh, and Taxi, stay off the drugs. I'm quite certain that mind-numbing or biochemistry-altering foreign chemicals do the body more harm than good IN EVERY SITUATION, although they might make you feel "better". Reminds me of leeches and mosquitos that inject you with "feel good" chemicals while they suck your blood. Drugs should be discriminatorily destroyed from the face of the earth.

Oh yeah? Well I'm quite certain you're wrong! So there!

Wait, hang on... that's not a strong argument. Oh right, verification!

• MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy Using Low Doses in a Small Sample of Women with Chronic Posttraumatic Stress Disorder

  We found that low doses of MDMA (between 50 and 75 mg) were both psychologically and physiologically safe for all the subjects. Future studies in larger samples and using larger doses are needed in order to further clarify the safety and efficacy of MDMA in the clinical setting in subjects with PTSD.

  A randomized, controlled pilot study of MDMA (±3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine)-assisted psychotherapy for treatment of resistant, chronic Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)

  We found that MDMA-assisted psychotherapy can be safely administered in a clinical setting. No drug-related serious adverse events occurred. We did not see statistically significant reductions in CAPS scores (p = 0.066), although there was clinically and statistically significant self-reported (PDS) improvement (p = 0.014). CAPS scores improved further at the 1-year follow-up. In addition, three MDMA sessions were more effective than two (p = 0.016).

  Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance

  At 2 months, the volunteers rated the psilocybin experience as having substantial personal meaning and spiritual significance and attributed to the experience sustained positive changes in attitudes and behavior consistent with changes rated by community observers.

  Psychedelic Therapy Utilizing LSD in the Treatment of the Alcoholic Patient: A Preliminary Report

  While all present results indicate that psychedelic therapy does add significantly to presently available alcoholic rehabilitation resources, it is emphasized that safe and effective use of LSD requires specialized training.

I'm assuming you meant to slight the "drugs are bad, mkay?" category, and didn't mean to include caffeine, alcohol, and all manner of medical drugs in your blanket statement. If that is what you meant, I'd be happy to return with more sources proving you resoundingly wrong.

But it is not on the basis of the merit of what I say that you reject me.

No, it really is.

----------------

I say wise, educated, insightful, brilliant, loving, truthful, honest, encouraging, hopeful, just, righteous, decent, wonderful things to you.

Isaiah 29:19 - The meek also shall increase [their] joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
Jeremiah 9:23 - Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise [man] glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty [man] glory in his might, let not the rich [man] glory in his riches.
Matthew 23:12 - And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Hah, sourcing bible quotes feels a lot like sourcing clinical trials and scholarly articles. The difference being that perhaps these quotes hold some sway over you.

----------------

On this whole situation in general:



This is what happens when an unstoppable force...meets an immovable object. You truly are incorruptible, aren't you? Huh? You won't stop arguing...out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't stop arguing...because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever.

Although for the sake of everyone else's sanity, maybe I really ought to stop responding so often to your public threads. Feel free to chat with me specifically, though. PM or private IRC is best.

[Sparky]

I realize I've been really demanding, and perhaps I have expected too much of you too soon. Trees take time to grow. Some day, you will understand.

Now I am done. Anything else of merit I desire to share I will not share with you.

[Smythe]

I realize I've been really demanding, and perhaps I have expected too much of you too soon. Trees take time to grow. Some day, you will understand.

Now I am done. Anything else of merit I desire to share I will not share with you.

Except this totally won't be true and you'll be back next week preaching your words to ears which once had great respect for you, now only know disdain through your constant hypocrisy and religious banter.