To Mod or Not to Mod, That is the Question

[Sparky]

There have been some questions regarding what modding involves, and what it doesn't involve. There is also apparently a difference between making maps with the Halo Editing Kit and changing existing maps.

I think it is worth differentiating between making maps and modifying existing maps. However, I don't think it is worth frowning upon either method. With the popularity of Intel-based processor chips with Apple computers, it is not worth looking down upon "the other" platform, whether it is a PC or a Mac; case-in-point, I am able to run Windows simultaneously. With the creation of many user-made applications for both platforms (there are many applications published at HaloMaps and HaloDemoMods), and with the constant creation of new operating systems and technologies, arguments that divide the two seem fruitless and only irritate.

Instead, let's see what it is like to create and modify maps on each respective platform and seek to improve both similarly. I'm saying that the communities discussing different platforms of Halo games can learn from each other. This is how we will more efficiently expand our horizons to include support for non-Mac and non-PC games, like Halo games released for the Xbox 360. So let's work together to create tools that are a vast improvement for both platforms; let's improve upon what Bungie started!

[2310]

Agreed.

In addition, I believe we should differentiate between original CE content and purely converted/imported CE content, as the former should be considered a normal mod and not discriminated against due to it's CE origin.

Also, not only CE can be used to create; every mod is a creation in some way, whether it creates a new experience, new vehicle, or even new path to a cliff.

[Amy]

^ FUCKING HUGE SIG MAN


While making content on CE and using it for demo is better then converting, i still do not believe that mods made FULLY on CE, and released here, make any sense.

[Kiyoshi]

Get the hint sparky, most of these newbies your so interested in teaching just rip off from other creators stuff. CE is okay to us if you make it yourself, even then you need to realize CE people don't give two shits about Mac, and you honestly think we can merge them? We don't look down on CE, we look down on you lazy asses who steal peoples tags and hard work, slap it into a bloodgulch map and say I MADE A MAWD.

When will you get this through your thick skull man?

Also, 2310, No Mods are Modification. CE is Custom Content. Your ignorant if you think its right to steal from that users created content without their permission and slap it into a map and call it your "mod". when anyone can take exactly the same map, and do exactly the same thing you did.

[2310]

Also, 2310, No Mods are Modification. CE is Custom Content. Your ignorant if you think its right to steal from that users created content without their permission and slap it into a map and call it your "mod". when anyone can take exactly the same map, and do exactly the same thing you did.

No Mods are Modification?

Also, I did mean original, self-made CE content ... which part are you referring to where I said otherwise?

^ FUCKING HUGE SIG MAN

lol sorry! It was an experiment.

[kiddten]

2310: I think he meant "No, Mods are modifications."

[Sparky]

That was an impressive signature comparison chart, 2310, did you make it yourself? I wonder how accurate it is, considering my own experiences with importing scenario bsps as .obj files in 3ds max.

Kiyoshi, do you understand my premise, here? I think it's time to change our perspective.

[{DKW}Drk]

All they do is import and Slap it in their and call it theirs

yeah take a look at omega mombossa and omega zanzibar. count how much CE content is there.
Almost everyone imports. thats all they do now. just Rip, Splat. claim. then rip splat and claim.
Why is this topic even here? they call them selves "modders" caus they rip CE content and slap it in there and say "ITS MINE NOT YOURS"
thats their definition of modding why put one with actuall modding? Rename this to: how to rip CE content. caus thats all they do now.
im not against sparks here but im agreeing with kiyoshi.
Yes you can consider me a hypocrite.

[2310]

That was an impressive signature comparison chart, 2310, did you make it yourself? I wonder how accurate it is, considering my own experiences with importing scenario bsps as .obj files in 3ds max.

Nope.

http://halo.bungie.org/news.html?item=30780

But it's nice to see that Desert Multigulch is actually small. We should have a map that is as long as the Maw, and it'll be impossible for any team to score more than once in 15 minutes ... without teleporters or Longswords. [/offtopic]

2310: I think he meant "No, Mods are modifications."

Ah ok. It really depends on how you define it: after all, CE content still uses the Halo engine as a base. (For example, you can't make Halo Demo into a multiplayer RTS by using CE content ... right?)

What exactly defines the difference between a creation and a modification here? (Is Isle a mod or a creation? It's an entirely new map in gameplay ...)

[Moxus]

Kiyoshi, do you understand my premise, here? I think it's time to change our perspective.

On CE content? Not really. It's still a cheap way to make a mod, and rarely produces good work with good replay value. On using CE to make a "mod" and then converting it to Demo? It's not a mod; It's content creation, followed quickly by conversion. And in that sense, it's no different than someone posting a map that they found on Halomaps and converted to Demo.

[Sparky]

But then why is it ok to use Zeus or another mac application to create maps or tags? Just because it's made on another platform doesn't make it abhorrent; converting between game formats is not improper. The issue is not converting, but whether people are getting recognition for what they did. Hence credits, special thanks, descriptions of how things were done, etc.

I am looking at modifying the game from the perspective of Halo Custom Edition's Halo Editing Kit users, and from our Mac-related tools, and I'm saying that both need improvement. This is why we are still making new modding tools. And by definition, "Custom Edition" implies modifications to the original content, hence modding. How you slice it, whether you start from "scratch" or from an existing tag, doesn't matter, so long as you give credit where it's due.

[Moxus]

But then why is it ok to use Zeus or another mac application to create maps or tags? Just because it's made on another platform doesn't make it abhorrent; converting between game formats is not improper. The issue is not converting, but whether people are getting recognition for what they did. Hence credits, special thanks, descriptions of how things were done, etc.

I am looking at modifying the game from the perspective of Halo Custom Edition's Halo Editing Kit users, and from our Mac-related tools, and I'm saying that both need improvement. This is why we are still making new modding tools. And by definition, "Custom Edition" implies modifications to the original content, hence modding. How you slice it, whether you start from "scratch" or from an existing tag, doesn't matter, so long as you give credit where it's due.

Touché.

The way I define modding is by taking the meaning of the original word: to modify. In that sense, it is to modify part of a game, which usually implies taking an original piece from the game and making changes to it, not making something completely new entirely. However, upon looking up modding on wikipedia, it appears that the Internet has come to define modding to include content creation, something which I would consider outside the bounds of the definition, but appears to have become acceptable. In that sense, I will concede that it appears my longstanding issue with CE import mods has clouded my judgement: if I see content creation with Zeus to be okay, then I shouldn't see an issue with content creation using CE. However, there is another problem: availability.

While content creation with Halo:CE may be okay, I have an issue with the fact that not all members of the community have access to the materials; in the past, all modders had access to virtually all the same tools, which gave an equal footing to everyone to create what they liked. I feel as though allowing those who have access to PCs to use CE would be somewhat of a Jip to those who only had access to a Mac. Therefore:

CE Import mods? Still bad. Content creation on CE? Fine by me. But only when everyone either has access to CE tools, or a program such as Zeus becomes widely available. Otherwise, it isn't fair to the community. And so, for the time being, our focus should remain on current, traditional, Mac modding techniques.

[Smythe]

All they do is import and Slap it in their and call it theirs

yeah take a look at omega mombossa and omega zanzibar. count how much CE content is there.
Almost everyone imports. thats all they do now. just Rip, Splat. claim. then rip splat and claim.
Why is this topic even here? they call them selves "modders" caus they rip CE content and slap it in there and say "ITS MINE NOT YOURS"

This is probably the only newb who has said this ever, normally they're all liek

Code: Select all

LoL BuT CE Is KOoL!!!

Which it sometimes is. However, i do not agree with Moxus on that last part

CE Import mods? Still bad. Content creation on CE? Fine by me. But only when everyone either has access to CE tools, or a program such as Zeus becomes widely available. Otherwise, it isn't fair to the community. And so, for the time being, our focus should remain on current, traditional, Mac modding techniques.

Mostly the bit about not being fair. This bit does give a valid point, however i don't think that it's a problem. If we had more people who created things like the Massive ITMC or the Massive SCNR like sparky has done then i think it's be a lot better.

As modzy has said, Content Creation over Modification, while it may not be directed to CE, it is the only way (Currently possible) to actually create tags, such as the massive ITMC or SCNR tags released by sparky.

also Kiyo? that was a bit harsh, while i agree with everything you're saying, the way you said it was harsh.

Sparky: While i agree with most parts here, I don't think people on here look down upon the other platform, however the PC community hates us for Thinking Differently. A term coined by apple to show what the mac is.
The PC community must only hate to stay popular, As mac users we are mostly modest, and honest people.
99% to 100% of our users have or do use windows, and yet 90% of PC users who hate Mac have never used it, The needless hate is not driven by thought, but by the Arrogance and the Ignorance of the PC gaming community.

now lets look at it from there side

While they have many positive benefits, the PC is shrouded in bugs and crashes. So the only way they can see to make themselves better is to make everyone else seem worse. However a PC gamer will never admit to liking OS X because they will be hated. It's better to hate than be hated apparently. The PC community is 90% gamers. The Mac community is probably 10%, mainly because Mac isn't for gaming. So why do PC users go against us for something we're not made for? like giving a tree a lecture on how it can't swim... but much more complex.

In short, PC's hate us to merely be the same, and always need something more. While we are content knowing not that we have a superior operating system but that we're content with what we have.

TL;DR? Too Bad.
Shitty Grammar because i'm really tired, stressed and honestly not feeling good about anything.

[002]

I don't look down on Windows. I think it's a pretty good OS for what it offers. It's just that I don't like using it.

[draconic74]

Call me old school, weird, or just plain crazy, but in the case of Halo Demo modding, I count maps that have no new content added to them as a mod. In other words, if you mess around with what is there it's a mod, and if you add weapons/models/etc it's a new map entirely. New bitmaps do not count, I would think, unless they are internalized.

I take the definition of "modification" a bit too literally, don't I? It's just that I miss the old days of people coming up with innovative ways to make new and interesting weapons or vehicles instead of relying on CE importation. Now, if you make it yourself in CE and convert it... But that is still not the same.