inappropriate language on games

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Protoss98
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inappropriate language on games

Post by Protoss98 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:19 pm

Hi,

This is to love (who mods bigass I believe) as well as other mods such as atomical (who I greatly respect btw).
It has come to my attention that the Bigass map, run by love, now bans certain offensive words such as "fag" and "nigga." (I only use the actual words to emphasize what I'm talking about, not to be offensive). The server blots out those words when they are used by users.
I am a big believer in not using cruel words. However this is a major problem. Here's why
1) Halo isn't the place to enforce our morals on others
I understand that you're trying to do what you consider to be the right thing by not allowing people to use offensive language. However that's not the purpose of Halo-the purpose of Halo is for people to play the game, have fun, and interact with each other. And unfortunately some people will screw everything up for others by being rude and offensive. However it's not our job to be the moral police and tell them what they can and can't say, their parents and other people in their lives hopefully will do that. By trying to be the anti-offensive mods, what you're really doing is enforcing what you see as right and wrong on others, which becomes problematic. Imagine in the future if someone decided that the word "noob" is offensive because it hurts young people's feelings. And so they ban the word from the server and ban people who try to use it. Or what if they decide the word "idiot" is offensive to mentally challenged people and do the same with that word? It's not your job to stop others from saying offensive things.
2) Free speech is free even if you disagree with it
This relates to point number one. Freedom of speech means freedom of ANY speech, even if we think it's absolutely horrible. Because if you try to say "I'm only going to allow speech I agree with"-well that's just blatant censorship. One of the great things about America is the right to freedom of speech. Freedom is an essential right to human beings, and limiting it just to protect people's feelings isn't right either.
3) You can't protect people
Love I know you have the best intentions but face it. You're never going to stop halo users from being bigoted or from hurting other's feelings. Users will still insult each other, they'll still be mean and jerks will still find ways to be jerks. For instance, people can still say "phaggot" or "negga". They can just respell the word and it has the same effect. You aren't doing any good at all and you're just annoying and bothering users by placing restrictions on freedom of speech.
Also, just fyi some gay people use the word "faggot" as an endearing term. And some black people say "nigga" to each other like "homie." Those people don't like the ban either on those words.
I know you have the best of intentions and you're an awesome guy, but it's time to face reality. It's time to unban those words.

Modzy
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by Modzy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:39 pm

It's up to the server operator to decide how the server should be run. If it's a PG13 server host, expect to be banned for inappropriate behavior.

If you're not up for the rules, you're completely free to start your own servers.

nil
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by nil » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:41 pm

I personally believe that as soon as you are able to socially interact with others online (by eg: typing in chat), it's more than "just a game". Much of what you're saying is your viewpoint/belief, not fact. Though I or Modzy am not in charge of that server in any way.
I am no longer active to Halo or MGM, and don't guarantee a response on the forums or through email. I will however linger around the discord room for general chatting. It's been fun!

Guest

Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by Guest » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:33 pm

Nil I totally agree with you that it's more than just a game when people are throwing around harmful words. However my point still stands-it's STILL not mods jobs to be the moral police of the gaming community. Because as I said earlier, it's a slippery slope when you start deciding what's acceptable. Gaming is supposed to be a free arena, and restrictions on speech, even harmful speech, are not going to prevent bullying at all.
When has a bully ever been stopped by not being able to say fag? He can just respell the word as I pointed out without being banned.

Also to love, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

atomical
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by atomical » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:33 am

Guest wrote:Nil I totally agree with you that it's more than just a game when people are throwing around harmful words. However my point still stands-it's STILL not mods jobs to be the moral police of the gaming community. Because as I said earlier, it's a slippery slope when you start deciding what's acceptable. Gaming is supposed to be a free arena, and restrictions on speech, even harmful speech, are not going to prevent bullying at all.
When has a bully ever been stopped by not being able to say fag? He can just respell the word as I pointed out without being banned.

Also to love, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
So going through the logs and banning all the abusive users by CD key and IP address isn't going to help? I think you overestimate the intelligence of these idiots.

nil
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by nil » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:14 pm

Guest wrote:Nil I totally agree with you that it's more than just a game when people are throwing around harmful words.
My point was more general: when people are able to chat online with each other to great degree.
Guest wrote:However my point still stands-it's STILL not mods jobs to be the moral police of the gaming community.
It's the job of whoever that owns/maintains the server to do what they like with regards to behavior, mutes, bans, etc. This actually models real life closely: you can't act however you want in every kind of environment. When people bring up complaints like this, they think that the internet and gaming is somehow special. Even if I didn't agree with censoring out specific words, I still wouldn't agree with this point.
Guest wrote:Because as I said earlier, it's a slippery slope when you start deciding what's acceptable. Gaming is supposed to be a free arena, and restrictions on speech, even harmful speech, are not going to prevent bullying at all.

When has a bully ever been stopped by not being able to say fag? He can just respell the word as I pointed out without being banned
But this is simply just your belief; you just made up things that gaming is *supposed* to be about. I do believe from my own experience that proper moderation on online abuse does make a difference.

Now you can argue about whether censoring words is effective (you either think yes; certain words are highly correlated with abuse and may ease moderation, or no it can be avoided and is not effective anyway) but that's not something I really want to get into discussing. But also it's a minor inconvenience that has no impact on gameplay and it's kind of disturbing to get in a long-rallied conversation about it to start off with.

[edit]: btw, you may want to visit a few pages from say here so you have a better idea of what freedom of speech, moderation, etc pertains to rather than just throwing words out there.
I am no longer active to Halo or MGM, and don't guarantee a response on the forums or through email. I will however linger around the discord room for general chatting. It's been fun!

love

Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by love » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:52 am

Before I respond. My first question would be, Do ever play under the name "John Boner"?
Don't lie to me, boy.

love
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by love » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:17 am

Wellllllll first things first: I’m open to criticisms, suggestions and otherwise regarding the chosen method of moderation on the Bigass server (and others). If people think that I’m overstepping my bounds as a moderator - please let me know. In the past, the action taken against people using bigoted language was much more severe (and also somewhat comical) - but I digress.

The next thing to establish is that Freedom of Speech is something that I respect. Despite the fact that it doesn’t even apply to a *private* game server - I would still like to adhere to its tenets.

What freedom of speech (in the United States) DOES protect is something that I would choose to sidestep for the purposes of brevity. What freedom of speech DOES NOT protect, among other things, are insults designed to spark verbal or physical confrontation.

The words I have chosen to moderate are those most frequently associated with vitriol, hate, and, most importantly, disruption. People do not use those words to mock people in some jovial nature that adds to the gaming experience, but mostly to disrupt the gaming experience - they are not using these words to express their ideas, further some political movement, or express some grievance with the filthy moderators - they’re using using them to deliberately aggravate and goad other players.

Yes players can circumvent these filters - but I do feel like these filters make a dent AND, more importantly, it serves as a warning the bigoted language isn’t tolerated. If you’re spelling it “phaggot,” “n igr,” or some other derivative - chances are high that you’ve already been warned.

Yes, you’re absolutely right that I’ve chosen a subset of words that have alternative meanings in different contexts; that context is rarely present in the gaming environment.

Slippery Slope? There are a great many pejoratives that are not filtered. I find those that have been filtered to be truly offensive in all contexts associated with gaming and are generally the most disruptive. A great many others (noob, fucker, etc …) can be used with a great variety of intentions. My opinions on this could very well be colored by my personal beliefs and disdain for bigotry … but I try to be impartial in this regard. Anyways, if people feel like some are used primarily to disrupt the gaming experience we could probably add them to the list - that slope doesn’t seem too slippery at this point though.

Food for thought: Say you’re playing basketball at a public high school and you start yelling at a classmate using the same words that are moderated on these servers - you are deliberately trying to start a verbal or physical confrontation and your teacher would be well within their rights to stop that. I’m not saying I’m your teacher - but that scenarios plays out entirely in the public domain where these rights apply and your arguments don’t stand for even that scenario.

“Moral Police”: The reasons cited above are the primary driver for moderation - I’m not trying to sway people’s outlook on morality.

002
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by 002 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:44 pm

Oh boy, one of these freedom of speech topics. I think people fail to realize that there is no such thing as true freedom of speech, especially in the United States. This has been proven time and time again (e.g. you can't post child pornography, you can't threaten to bomb a public building, etc.), yet people still continue to assume that you can say whatever you want.

What I don't understand is why it's being brought up, because it's completely irrelevant. Tons of public buildings like schools as well as private establishments like family restaurants have no-swearing rules, and they can kick you out if you swear. Sure, the government won't arrest you for swearing, but they will arrest you for trespassing.

If a server owner doesn't want you to swear, then they can have that rule if they want. They have every right to censor whatever they want, and if you don't like it, find a different server. Personally, I don't care if you want to say "fuck" on my servers. If you're not harassing players or breaking some sort of law, then I most likely won't care.
Last edited by 002 on Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

love
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by love » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:45 pm

yerp. 002 speaks the truth.
btw - most things are not censored. swear up a storm as long as it's not just to harass or spam.

Protoss98
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by Protoss98 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:03 pm

I think everyone here is still misunderstanding my point.

It's not about whether the language is bigoted or not.
No one disputes that the word "faggot" is hurtful in a lot of contexts.
However the problem is that then any word can be banned-as long as someone feels offended by a word, they have a right to ask that that word not be used. Who's to say who is right?
Also I'm tired of hearing "it's the servers right to ban language they don't like." Of course the mods CAN ban any language. That's not the issue. The issue is whether they SHOULD. You guys are getting hung up on "well it's my right to do this" or "it's my right to stop people from being mean." I know you have the power to do whatever the hell you want. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that I think it would be wise of you to not go on the slippery slope of banning any language people deem offensive.
And why isn't the word "pussy" banned then? I'ts extremely offensive in certain contexts-hell, the word CUNT isn't banned. That's literally the most offensive word there is to women. And yet you arbitrarily choose to ban the word "faggot"? Really? Grow up guys-it's all fine and good to say you want to stop bullying but at least be consistent about it. I'd recommend you guys watch the
South Park episode "The F-Word." I think it will change your minds on this issue.
Love in the end it's your right to do whatever you want, I'm just saying I think you're opening up a can of worms by banning words.

And my main username is AFascistHen...I know who John Boner is but I don't see how he's relevant in this discussion.
Last edited by Protoss98 on Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

love
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by love » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:30 am

I do believe we have grasped the main point of your argument as we have recognized that, "It's not about whether the language is bigoted or not."

Perhaps a recap:
  • Yes - those words are very offensive and I just don't really want them spoken in my presence generally, but that alone isn't the real reason they're banned.
  • The reason they are banned is because many people who use those words often simply come on to troll/spam the server and they actually simply leave when the are unable to use these hateful words.
  • When people are warned about what kind of words aren't tolerated (i.e. auto-censorship) and they persist by modifying those words so that the can continue trolling - then I don't have to warn them 8 times before kicking them.
Pussy and Cunt are offensive words (and so is "rape"). But their use in the game doesn't generally lead to trolling/harassment so I don't address them (though rape is up there).

sword
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by sword » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:41 am

love wrote:I do believe we have grasped the main point of your argument as we have recognized that, "It's not about whether the language is bigoted or not."

Perhaps a recap:
  • Yes - those words are very offensive and I just don't really want them spoken in my presence generally, but that alone isn't the real reason they're banned.
  • The reason they are banned is because many people who use those words often simply come on to troll/spam the server and they actually simply leave when the are unable to use these hateful words.
  • When people are warned about what kind of words aren't tolerated (i.e. auto-censorship) and they persist by modifying those words so that the can continue trolling - then I don't have to warn them 8 times before kicking them.
Pussy and Cunt are offensive words (and so is "rape"). But their use in the game doesn't generally lead to trolling/harassment so I don't address them (though rape is up there).
Do you. Ban players using whatever language you don't like - it's your server.

Protoss98
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by Protoss98 » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:10 pm

First off, sword literally added nothing of value to this discussion other than repeat the fallacy alluded to earlier. "Mods can ban whoever they want."
Just because you CAN do something-never means you SHOULD.
Secondly, to more mature individuals like Love, you think that people who say "faggot" come on to troll the server-but people who say "cunt" or "pussy" don't? There seems to be a bit of a disconnect there. At least be consistent. If you're going to ban faggot, ban any word that demeans a group (like the way "cunt" demeans women). Also, "wetback"-a derogatory word for Mexicans isn't banned to my knowledge, neither is "hymie"-an extremely anti-Jewish word, nor "cracker"-a racist word for white people.
I could go on and on. Point is, you really are going down a bit of a slippery slope with this whole "let's ban offensive language" thing.
I realize whatever I say probably will have zero impact on what you decide to ban/not ban, but my larger point I guess is I think it would be to the greater good if you just let trolls be trolls and douches be douches-I know you're doing what you deem best and I do really think you're a good guy, but I don't think it benefits the people playing on your server, rather it just provides unnecessary censorship made more confusing by the nonbanning of other equally offensive words.
Best,

Protoss98

sword
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Re: inappropriate language on games

Post by sword » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:06 am

Protoss98 wrote:First off, sword literally added nothing of value to this discussion other than repeat the fallacy alluded to earlier. "Mods can ban whoever they want."
Just because you CAN do something-never means you SHOULD.
Secondly, to more mature individuals like Love, you think that people who say "faggot" come on to troll the server-but people who say "cunt" or "pussy" don't? There seems to be a bit of a disconnect there. At least be consistent. If you're going to ban faggot, ban any word that demeans a group (like the way "cunt" demeans women). Also, "wetback"-a derogatory word for Mexicans isn't banned to my knowledge, neither is "hymie"-an extremely anti-Jewish word, nor "cracker"-a racist word for white people.
I could go on and on. Point is, you really are going down a bit of a slippery slope with this whole "let's ban offensive language" thing.
I realize whatever I say probably will have zero impact on what you decide to ban/not ban, but my larger point I guess is I think it would be to the greater good if you just let trolls be trolls and douches be douches-I know you're doing what you deem best and I do really think you're a good guy, but I don't think it benefits the people playing on your server, rather it just provides unnecessary censorship made more confusing by the nonbanning of other equally offensive words.
Best,

Protoss98
You're using fallacy incorrectly - it's entirely just that owners and administrators can ban for whatever they like. You're playing on a privately owned server, you have no right to service.

From the looks of your arguments and the language you want to use, whoever owns the server is doing the right thing removing you from play. You contribute toxicity to a community by using and defending the usage of slurs while claiming they are "sentence enhancers." I've seen this argument used numerous times socially isolated teenagers who play video games and need somewhere to let out their angst. You'll hopefully get out of this phase eventually and realize that casually using slurs does nothing but endear yourself with other toxic individuals while alienating yourself from the rest of the world. So in short, good riddance kiddo

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